It's hard for AI to describe a photographer’s presence on the day

In this episode of For Those Of You Who Don’t Know Me, I chat with photographer Joshua Mikhaiel about how the wedding world is changing and what that means for couples and vendors alike.

We dive into the so-called “wedding tax,” whether AI has a real role in planning, and why personal touch always matters more than any tool. We talk about wedding photography as more than just pretty pictures—it’s about capturing real, human moments—and we look at how traditions can be both grounding and restrictive.

A big part of our chat is about communication: how couples often struggle to say what they want, and how vendors can listen and guide without pushing their own agenda. At the end of the day, I believe weddings aren’t about appearances—they’re about connection, authenticity, and creating memories that actually last.

• the Hollywood Reporter piece about Oasis
• Josh Mikhaeil’s website

Transcript

Josh Withers (00:03) For those of that don’t know me, my name is Josh Withers and joining me on the podcast is a man who doesn’t even know how to pronounce his own name. It’s Joshua McCKhalabalala. Hello, Joshua Mikhaiel Are you prepared to answer those allegations? You can’t even pronounce your last name or spell it.

Joshua Mikhaiel (00:14) Hello, how are we? Joshua Withers.

I decline to incriminate myself any further, Your Honour.

Josh Withers (00:24) Josh, it’s always a pleasure to see your face, my friend. And I wanted to get you on the podcast today because I have found through the last few episodes that the more opinionated and controversial you do a podcast, the more views it gets on TikTok. look, I am but a me am just a mortal human. And so when I see those numbers ticking, does it just do something in my spirit? it?

Joshua Mikhaiel (00:28) Always a pleasure.

Yeah.

Josh Withers (00:48) Does it make me feel like a weak insecure man? Yes. Does it make me feel like a big boy? Yes. so that’s why you’re here, my friend. So you’re here to drop some bombs, metaphorically, no more real bombing, please.

Joshua Mikhaiel (01:00) As your

ranking part Middle Eastern friend, I’m here to drop bombs on the podcast. Is that, that what we’re, okay.

Josh Withers (01:07) Look, look, on the record, I did not plan that linking. That was not where I was going. “Dropping bombs” is a thing people say to people of all skin colors and origins. yeah, it’s so crikey how this look, I’m looking at the timer. We’ve been recording for one minute and 37 already need to declare a ceasefire done moving along. Ceasefire has been reached. All right, Josh.

Joshua Mikhaiel (01:12) Mm. ⁓

I’ve heard.

Yes. Okay.

Josh Withers (01:36) how do you think, the world is going to change in getting weddings, getting weddings, getting wedded. How do you see getting weddingidid? it? everything’s changing. Literally my Uber driving yesterday when he found that I worked in weddings, asked me how he thought, how, how did I think Taylor Swift was going to change weddings? And, and I, although I wrote a blog post about it, it was purely click bait.

Joshua Mikhaiel (01:43) Getting weddinged.

Josh Withers (01:58) I don’t know how to tell us what’s going to change weddings. Do you know how to us what’s going to change weddings?

Joshua Mikhaiel (01:58) Mmm.

I don’t. ⁓ I think it will be interesting.

Josh Withers (02:05) That’s the podcast today folks, thanks for joining

us.

Joshua Mikhaiel (02:09) I’m probably the wrong person to ask about Taylor Swift. I’m sure she’ll roll something out that’ll be interesting and it’ll be on trend. I’d love if it changed.

Josh Withers (02:18) Do you think she could bring my sepia trend

back?

Joshua Mikhaiel (02:20) No, I fear it’s a lost hope for you, Josh. I think you’re gonna have to try that one on your own. I hope that it will move the current wedding trends along to something else. I’m ready for a shift, whatever that brings. Yeah.

Josh Withers (02:21) No.

Are you are you having a pot shot at the reality TV wedding video in that smart remark? Is that you saying?

Joshua Mikhaiel (02:46) There’s a reality TV wedding

Josh Withers (02:47) is blowing up on Instagram and Tik Tok. It’s, your wedding film is filmed like a, like a reality TV show.

Joshua Mikhaiel (02:51) That’s why I haven’t seen it.

Alright, no, I haven’t seen it. I’m out of the loop. I apologize.

Josh Withers (02:57) It’s you know

what? I don’t hate it. As someone who has seen his fair share wedding videos, any drop of creativity in that space is welcome in my opinion.

Joshua Mikhaiel (03:08) Yeah, I think what I’d love to see someone try with a wedding video is like to go full BBC documentary or chef’s table kind of style where it’s like nicely lit interviews with all the key players and it’s like lots of very still shots. Birds tweeting in the background, it’s very slow. It’s not a music video. Just for a change. I’d be here for that.

Josh Withers (03:24) Hahaha

So I’ve got a few topics for the talk show today. And I wanted to start with an oldie, but a goodie because I don’t like breaking this one out. And it came fresh on threads this last week. And I was going to read direct from the thread so that I can just get you to respond to it live. Jackson McQueen posts, just heard that if you tell a venue, no, not to be confused, this is Jackson, his older brother.

Joshua Mikhaiel (03:34) Yes. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

not to be confused with Lightning McQueen.

Josh Withers (03:58) Just heard that if you tell a venue it’s for a party instead of your wedding, the cost is 90 % cheaper.

Joshua Mikhaiel (03:58) He’s out of

Controversial.

Josh Withers (04:07) My favorite thing is that the comments

don’t smack him down straight away. There’s people, someone says, look, it’s not 90%, but the wedding tax is real.

Joshua Mikhaiel (04:14) I would imagine that there are some places where that is absolutely true. And I think they’re probably hitting people up for danger money of like, if your 50th birthday party doesn’t go off exactly as planned, you’re probably not gonna sue the venue. But if we make a mistake at your wedding, it’s probably gonna all go down in flames and…

I reckon there’s a bit of that for some people, but I certainly don’t charge a different wedding tax than I do for any commercial work or family work or anything else. But I wouldn’t be able to speak on behalf of the whole industry, but I’m not sure about wedding tax. I don’t know if it exists.

Josh Withers (04:55) Okay, so I’m going to go to a different angle here because look, I’m of the opinion the wedding tax doesn’t exist per se. It’s just the weddings aren’t different to birthday parties. Like I like you said, if you if your 50th birthday party doesn’t go as planned, we’re have it next year and have it next week. Like it’s yeah, like it might suck. There might be some financial, know, some contractual financial elements, but you know, you’re not you’re not emotionally hanging on the 50th birthday party, whereas the wedding

Joshua Mikhaiel (04:58) Yeah.

Okay.

Mm.

Yeah.

Josh Withers (05:21) whoo, the emotional requirement of that day is big. And so it’s not a wedding tax. It’s just that there, there’s an expectation enlargement. And that does come with a different commercial requirement. And that often comes with a different thing, but putting that aside, cause that’s a conversation we can have forever. How do, and you can either answer for yourself directly, which is probably the best way for you to go, but you can also just answer on the behalf of the industry. Um, where

Joshua Mikhaiel (05:31) Yeah.

be nice to honest.

Josh Withers (05:50) Which random number generator do you use to get your prices? Are you using random number generator.com or .net?

Joshua Mikhaiel (05:55) you

I use .org

to be more official. I don’t use one.

Josh Withers (06:03) Ha!

Which leads me to like, where do the numbers come from? Where do the prices come from? How do you price a wedding?

Joshua Mikhaiel (06:07) It’s…

I price a wedding based on how many hours it’s going to take me to do the job. So I think about how many hours of emailing and meetings and gear preparation and camera insurance considerations and things that will cost to do the job. And I think usually by the time that I’ve done that, I work it out that I’m probably getting paid as much as your mechanic per hour.

Josh Withers (06:31) Yeah

Joshua Mikhaiel (06:32) you just usually don’t voluntarily employ your mechanic for 40 hours, on a weekend, if you can choose to not do that.

Josh Withers (06:38) And the other thing with mechanic is that we’ve all been there. It’s like the car’s going to be ready Friday. It’s not ready Friday. It’s going to be next week and blow out a few days. you needed some extra parts and needs to make sure work. And so there’ll be a little bit more here and there. Whereas there is that centering on this date that’s all happening on this date.

Joshua Mikhaiel (06:54) Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, there’s lots of after work for me, particularly. You probably get to finish up technically once you’ve posted off their paperwork, but yeah, I’m not usually telling people, I’m just gonna spend another week retouching your elbows. That’ll be an extra $4,000. Yeah, sorry about the joint being blown out, a sleekin’ oil.

Josh Withers (07:21) you

Joshua Mikhaiel (07:21) It’s a rego concern, sorry. You can’t register the marriage unless these photos are perfect.

Josh Withers (07:28) Do you like the, that editing side of it? Like which, part of the process do you like the most?

Joshua Mikhaiel (07:33) That’s interesting because with AI now, a lot of people are trying to lean more into it for their editing. because it’s the part that they say they don’t like. actually really like it. I like seeing the photos finish where I imagined that they would. and putting my fingers into making it all, you know, the whole process. I think you don’t really save any time.

anywhere in life is something that I believe you just move it around. So there’s, there’s no real way to cut corners, you just end up paying for it somewhere else. And I think the way that we pay for sometimes outsourcing, editing or things like that is in less job satisfaction. And I think as someone who puts so much of themselves into the wedding day for 1216 hours when you’re there to then not

continue the process to its logical end, like, is really hard, because I’ve got really attached to the images and the people and the story. So I actually really enjoy spending a week or so, going through those photos, massaging them to get them where I want them to enjoy, almost processing the day. And I actually really enjoy editing. Controversial as that may be, I really get a kick out of it.

and I don’t enjoy outsourcing.

Josh Withers (08:48) It’s interesting that so many wedding photographers have got completely different takes on the whole thing. And I find it really funny because I’m not a wedding photographer that I, A, I get to talk to all you guys. And I’m so glad I have many, many wedding photographers that are, sorry, I can’t use English today. Apparently I have many wedding photographers that are friends of mine. But then also I talk to couples and

Joshua Mikhaiel (08:58) Mmm.

Mm.

Josh Withers (09:11) And it’s funny, it’s a little bit like if you’re standing in the supermarket and you want to get a recent, I wanted to get some barbecue sauce. Have you bought barbecue sauce recently, Josh?

Joshua Mikhaiel (09:22) I’ve never even heard of it, Josh. Tell me about it.

Josh Withers (09:25) Wow, look, it’s a good sauce. That’s all I’m gonna say. But when I was standing in the supermarket, there would have been like 15. And I know that there’s different tastes in barbecue sauce, different flavors. I have what I’ve traditionally liked, but then also I don’t mind trying new things. And I found it really hard trying to choose all of these different, from all of these different barbecue sauces, like which one.

Let’s get like the cleanest ingredients, which one tastes the best. I’m trying to think about like the economics of like other Australian made other, you know, other countries. like, do I does that factor into me? I don’t know. I like all I want is some bloody barbecue sauce. But they’re all presented on the shelf. And to make a choice, you’ve got to be blind and stupid and just that one.

Joshua Mikhaiel (10:00) Hmm.

Josh Withers (10:09) or you make a decision based on price. Like I wasn’t, I wasn’t willing to spend $12 on barbecue sauce. I was here for a $3 sauce. But then also you’ll get that sauce at home. So we currently have a barbecue sauce. don’t like, I don’t like the flavor of it, but we own it. So guess what sauce we’re using. And I feel that I’ve accidentally stumbled into a pretty good analogy for people trying to choose a wedding photographer because

Joshua Mikhaiel (10:35) Hmm.

Josh Withers (10:36) Couples don’t know, like, you might not even, I don’t know if you’ve communicated the process about editing, I don’t think I’ve heard you talk about that before. And so that’s a part of your value that you share because there’s other photographers who have close to zero love for editing that they, they like shooting.

Joshua Mikhaiel (11:00) Yeah.

Josh Withers (11:03) There’s people you and I know who like I feel like their main value, not their main, but a primary value proposition is their presence on the day. But in the wedding, in that moment, they are, they’re just, it’s just a blessing that they’re great. And which is not to say, so you’re not that, but I feel like there’s kind of all these, no, but there’s all these different kind of ingredients that go into making what is a wedding photographer. Like people, just saw someone bitching in a Facebook group about

Joshua Mikhaiel (11:17) Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Josh Withers (11:28) a studio photographer, they’re booked and they’re really upset that the photographer they thought they were getting, they’re not getting and they’re getting someone else and they’re to do legal action. And like, oh, that’s kind of the deal when you go to a studio, you might well say the person A is going to shoot. But part of the deal contractually, especially is that it might be person B or C or D or E. Because that’s the deal. Whereas if you go to Joshua McHale photography,

Joshua Mikhaiel (11:53) yeah.

Yeah.

Josh Withers (11:57) you got like there’s like a 99.9999 % chance that Joshua McKay was going to turn up, you

Joshua Mikhaiel (12:03) but I’m easily replaceable because I’m a Josh with an unpronounceable last name and I can find heaps of those replace me.

Josh Withers (12:07) Exactly.

Google it,

Joshua Mikhaiel (12:12) I have so much grace for couples because most of the time they’re getting married for the first time and they, they don’t know what they’re supposed to be looking for. They’ve had a lifetime of learning how to choose barbecue sauce or what percentage of fat they like in their milk or do they, you know, prefer a double ristretto because you know,

less bitterness, whatever. So they’ve, most of their purchases in their life, they have the opportunity to have another crack at if they didn’t like the first one and slowly become educated on what is a better choice for them. And they have no idea what they’re looking for with a wedding photographer other than photos that they like for the most part that they can afford. And it’s really tricky to

as a young couple getting married or an old couple getting married to understand what your experience is going to be like on the day, depending on who you choose, what the end product might be like, depending on who you choose and whether their cameras are fair trade and whether that will affect your enjoyment of your photos in 20 years. Like you, you really don’t know and nobody’s doing a lot of educating on that stuff.

and trying to educate couples on that.

Josh Withers (13:24) You imagine if a wedding photographer turned

up with like a Nikon or something like that, it’d be horrible.

Joshua Mikhaiel (13:29) a potato, ⁓ imagine. But it’s hard because obviously I could try and spend my social media life educating couples on how to make a good choice. But the algorithm is not going to reward me for that unless I do it in a tutu and make it ridiculous. ⁓ So there’s not

Josh Withers (13:30) Titus.

Don’t flush that idea,

that’s a solid idea.

Joshua Mikhaiel (13:50) Um, won’t be flashing that idea. Um, but it’s, it’s really tough for couples. Um, and I think I’ve been doing this for 13 years now. And I think more often than not, when I’m speaking with couples, I can sense that they don’t really know what they need or what they want. Um, which is why I like, I’ll often spend two hours in a meeting with couples trying to like help them.

understand what they’re looking for even if it’s not me because I think it’s really tough for them to figure that out and no one’s really volunteering that help.

Josh Withers (14:28) I think you might appreciate this quote. this little band. don’t know if you’ve heard of band from the early nineties called Oasis. They’ve had a few hits, but they’ve just recently started touring again, if you haven’t seen. But there’s a piece in the Hollywood Reporter by Stephen, I’m talking to people whose names I can’t pronounce like Macaulay. Stephen, I’m to say Zeitchik

Joshua Mikhaiel (14:36) Mm.

Yes.

Mm.

Josh Withers (14:51) But Steven wrote for the Hollywood Reporter. I was going to quote him, word for word, because I think it’s kind of beautiful. It would have been weird back in Oasis’s heyday to talk about a big stadium rock show being uniquely human. What the hell else could it be? But after decades of music chosen by algorithm, of the spirit of listen together radio fracturing into a million personalized streams of social media, the politics that fuel it, and ordering acts into groups of the allowed and the prohibited, auto tuning, overdubbing, washing out raw instruments.

our current cultural era spell of phone zombification, of communal spaces, of record stores being disbanded. Just the simple act of thousands of people convening under the sky to hear a few talented fellow humans break their backs with a bunch of instruments. But the oldest of entertainment constructs now also feels like a radical one. And it goes on to say, the Garlagers seem to be coming just in time to remind us of what it was like before. To issue a gentle caveat,

that by the power of positive suggestion that we should think twice before plunging further into the abyss to warn that human made art is fragile and too easily undone. In fact, in their case, it was undone for 16 years by its embodiments acting too much like petty humans. And the true feat, the band was saying triumphantly on Sunday is that there is a way to hold it together. And I just kind of like as you were talking through that, that act of

making something. It’s, it’s a uniquely human and beautiful act. I don’t know if you remember a few years ago, there was, was this big conversation that like as the Sony R1 as the Canon, I don’t think it was the R5, it was the R1, whichever camera that there was that all the brands were getting to a point that they could start recording. think whoever wrote the article felt that like 8K video was 8K, 8K

100 frames I think was that that was their magical point that you as a photographer could stop capturing frames and start capturing video and then you get home and you and or computer from that I don’t know 8 hours of video which can you imagine 8 hours of 8k video But but some kind of system would choose from 100 frames per second

Joshua Mikhaiel (16:56) Mm.

Yeah.

Josh Withers (17:11) of eight hours of 8K video. That’s something you or otherwise would kind of select frames out of that. Which seems like a really good idea. But there is, I don’t know, there’s just something special about someone standing there with a camera and there’s no photos being made right now. And then click and we click the shutter, open the shutter, sorry, click the button, open the shutter and a photo is made.

Joshua Mikhaiel (17:14) Hmm.

Josh Withers (17:40) And that process is not as simple as we’d like it to make it out to be like, and the studio photographer can do the same job. Like if they can click the button at the same time as you. So clicking the button, opening the shutter, like, yes, that’s a part of it, but there’s this whole process behind it of like getting to know the couple, what they value and what they like. And then.

And then the editing process, which is like culling photos. So choosing, yes, this one, no, that one, but then the color grading and then all says, color grading itself is this, this is own art on its own, which is why some people can and do outsource it. Cause cause it’s, it’s its own art. I’ve got, I’ve got a friend who’s a colorist for film and for movies. And so that’s his whole job. His whole job is coloring movies. ⁓ so it’s, it’s a, it’s a beautifully weird process. and it’s kind of funny to think.

Joshua Mikhaiel (18:13) Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Josh Withers (18:29) that Joe blow Jack and Jill from you know, local suburb just Google’s wedding photographer. Yes, he’s me.

Joshua Mikhaiel (18:38) No, no, completely. I think one of the things that I often think about is that nowadays people have so many photos of themselves, but they don’t have many photos of themselves as themselves.

Josh Withers (18:52) say that again.

Joshua Mikhaiel (18:52) And your

roll is full of photos of you, whether they’re selfies or they’re photos that you, you you were at someone else’s wedding and someone came up and held their phone up and you went with your partner or whatever. And it’s a photo of you, but it’s not a photo of you as yourself. When you’re actually joyful, when you’re caught in the moment, that’s not how you smile.

Um, so one of the things that I’ll often do is couples will default to sort of look at me, put their heads together and smile the way that they smile for a photo. Um, and one of the reasons that often say, look at each other, not at me is because when you’re looking at something that you have a connection with your pupils, dial it differently because you have a connection to the object. If you get a text on your phone shows up that it’s from Brit, your pupils will do something different because there’s a connection.

than if you get a text from me or Telstra or something that’s a lesser connection.

Josh Withers (19:52) I actually

look at my phone the same for you and Telstra, you guys when…

Joshua Mikhaiel (19:55) That’s what I assumed.

But there’s something that I think I’m trying to do and lots of photographers are trying to do, which is catch people being themselves at their weddings, giving that classic laugh that’s only theirs, that’s uniquely them, that’s in this world of AI and trends and whatever. It’s like, how can I catch you off?

guard when you’re not performing for a camera, when you’re not trying to keep up with the Joneses, when your guard is down and you’re not expecting to be caught. Because I think 20 years down the line, that’ll be the memory that is more valuable to you than a photo in perfect light doing your camera smile that you have 17,000 photos of already on your camera roll looking like that. And I don’t think any studio photographer is less

talented to do that. think they just have less options, not options, less lead up to understand the couple’s story and things like that to make it easier for them to catch them off guard, to understand what moments will be the vulnerable moments to capture because they’ve just been given a name and an address and told to show

Josh Withers (21:03) I wasn’t at all denigrating or even having a go at studio photographers, just explaining that across that spectrum. And the spectrum is even it’s not good to bad. It’s not like it’s not there’s no judgment of quality or it’s just the spectrum is different deals and different deals are being done. Like I often think about as a celebrant. Every couple asks that that if I’m this celebrant, what happens if something happens?

Joshua Mikhaiel (21:11) Yeah.

Josh Withers (21:26) I’m sure they ask you. It’s a good question to ask. not even like, I don’t know. I don’t know if there’s a better way to ask you. It’s a great question. Like what happens if something happens? And I always struggle to answer the question because I’m like, honestly, I’m not too sure because…

Joshua Mikhaiel (21:27) Yeah. No, it is.

Hmm.

Josh Withers (21:44) there’s been two weddings in my career that I’ve not attended. One of them was my first daughter being born and I had a celebrant organized already and the couple knew and the celebrant knew and then I’m like, hey, today’s the day. And so the plan fell into place and I didn’t do that wedding. And then the other one, the other wedding I didn’t do, they had months of notice because it my little brother’s wedding. And I said, like, I said.

I’ve just got to do my little brother’s wedding. I’m so sorry. So I refunded them and can’t like obviously cancel to refund it. And they’re the two weddings I’ve not done in my 16 years of celebrancy. Every other wedding, like, yeah, there’s been days of not being feeling it. There’s been days where I’m like emotionally, physically, spiritually, you know, health just has not been at whatever level you might want it to be at. And, and in those moments, you know, I’ve done just gotten over myself and just figured it out. I’ve just

Joshua Mikhaiel (22:14) Yeah.

Josh Withers (22:33) I’ve just shoved the right pill in my mouth. I’ve drunk 10 liters of water. There was one day that I wasn’t feeling great in the morning. So I went and sat in the sauna for an hour, just kind of just worked it out. You know, you just, I don’t know, you just work it out. I’ve never not been there. And I was telling a friend yesterday that I do live in fear of that moment that I can’t be there because of

travel, play, I don’t know, whatever reason, can’t be there, because I’m like, it’s got to happen, because none of us are perfect. Like none of us have a perfect run. Mathematically, something’s going to go wrong one day. And so if you get a studio, and I won’t say studio, that means it’s a business that has many of the same one under it. So studio DJ, studio photographer, studio.

Joshua Mikhaiel (23:05) Yeah.

Josh Withers (23:17) So they don’t really have studio celebrants in Australia or agency celebrants, but but most the other trades do Then in that moment when the person has Whatever thing is horrible They just there’s someone else gets caught in which is good. That’s the way it should be but

Joshua Mikhaiel (23:20) Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm.

Josh Withers (23:34) But for me, I just turn up and I feel for you, like I’ve got no doubt there’s a moment where you’re like, yeah, I can’t, you I’m dead. You call in a friend, but that’s the deal you make when you get you or I to do the wedding. each along that spectrum from studio photographer to Josh, to I know there’s like husband wife duos, there’s even friends of two or three friends in a business together. Each of those is a different deal and not necessarily better or worse, but it’s just a different.

Joshua Mikhaiel (23:54) Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Withers (24:00) I feel deal is the best word to describe it. It’s just a different deal.

Joshua Mikhaiel (24:03) Hmm.

Yeah. And I think as long as couples have the tools to understand what they’re getting themselves in for, to make the best choice for them, then that like, fair game. Like, I think what I feel for couples is they often don’t understand. Like maybe the couple who are upset about their studio changing the person, like didn’t think that that could happen because they didn’t know.

they didn’t read the fine print or they didn’t ask the right questions because they didn’t know to ask those questions and that I feel for those people who get a surprise on their wedding day like I shot a wedding last year where a different videographer showed up and the couple didn’t know at all ⁓ and they said hi Adam and he said I’m Tim or you know and they were like where’s you know so they hadn’t even been let know and that was not ideal for them.

Josh Withers (24:41) Wow.

gosh.

Joshua Mikhaiel (24:53) and yeah, like, there’s obviously not ideal situations, but when you haven’t had enough understanding of what the processes might be, I think that’s when it gets really difficult for couples. not knowing what to, what to ask or what is reasonable to expect. yeah.

Josh Withers (25:11) So I’m gonna segue here into something that, and I’ll give you full permission to go to town on me slash the subject, because that’s, I don’t mind that kind of conversation. But I was asking you to trial that AI prompt for choosing a wedding photographer.

So for those that haven’t seen it, if you go to my website, marriedbyjosh.com slash AI, I’ve got a handful of prompts there that I’ve kind of been thinking about working on, on ways I feel people could use AI to help them in their wedding planning. And it was funny, I had some people that I know and respect to love kind of like get quite negative on a few of the posts because they hate AI and AI is ruining everything. And there’s valid things through that, you know.

not really here to hate on them. But the, I thought about how, how could AI be really, really useful in wedding planning? And one of them I thought was in people trying to find wedding vendors and because it’s funny, if you Google wedding photographer, sub wedding photographer, Brisbane, and there’s 10 results on the front page of Google, it’s like, I likely that’s not going to be your photographer.

Joshua Mikhaiel (25:51) now.

Yeah.

Josh Withers (26:11) Like just mathematically, like no, no hate to anyone who’s ranking number one for wedding photographer, Brisbane wedding photographers, Sydney. It’s just highly likely they’re not your photographer. And maybe the second page isn’t even maybe, maybe they’re on the fifth page of Google. And, uh, because there’s all these different deals going on. And so people don’t know what they value. They don’t know what they’re for a photographer. And, and if you look in any big city, like, gosh, like how many wedding photographers are in Sydney? There’d be, I’m going to guess at least three to 500.

Joshua Mikhaiel (26:13) Yeah.

Hmm.

hundreds.

Josh Withers (26:41) Yeah, there’s probably 500 operational wedding photographers in Sydney. And there’s one of them who’s like perfect for you. And then there’s maybe 100 that are okay for you. And there’s 400 that are any good. so coming back around to people trying to find a wedding photographer, I thought maybe an AI prompt to try and narrow that down a little bit would be helpful because you can do really good web search in chat jbt today. So I these prompts.

Joshua Mikhaiel (26:42) easily.

Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Josh Withers (27:10) And I think they’re okay. You helped me with a few questions, but it’s also been a few days since I’ve talked about it. ⁓ What do you think? Do you think? Yeah, just what do think?

Joshua Mikhaiel (27:14) I did.

Hmm.

I think that, I think that it can have its place and I think that it’s helpful in certain situations. Like anything is, is good for certain things, but will fail at other things. I think for the couples who really don’t know where to start, probably super helpful. and it’s tricky cause everybody’s needs are so different. And one of the hardest things that I think is that people are often not

aware or able to communicate those needs, whether it’s the wedding photographer or their needs in the relationship. Like across the board, we do not often know and have a deep awareness of our actual needs and desires and how to express them. And in that, your AI search will only be as good as your understanding of what you’re looking for and your ability to communicate the prompt, as well as where AI gets to along the way.

Josh Withers (27:50) Hahaha

Joshua Mikhaiel (28:09) and my hope is that people may be using your prompts can get a baseline and be like, as I see these options that AI is presenting me and how it describes those styles, I now have a better understanding of what I like and don’t like. And maybe I can use that to fuel a further search potentially. that can take me on a bit of a deeper dive because

you might go to your average couple in Hobart or Brisbane or whatever and say, do you prefer photo journalistic wedding photography or editorial wedding photography? And I think 50 % of people would say, I have no idea what either of those things are. And it’s, it’s, it’s not something that you should have to know about in a way. So you could type into AI like we really want, you know.

Josh Withers (28:51) you should be able to get no idea what’s going on.

Joshua Mikhaiel (29:02) I don’t know, good photos. you have to be able to communicate what you’re looking for. And the hardest thing I think for people who are chasing the upper tier, right? Like these tools will obviously get you great options that will do the job. But I think for people who are looking for like the best choice for them, the absolute best choice, which is not everybody. Most people are like, give me a good option and tick that off my wedding planning list. But I think for people who are looking for the top tier thing,

It’s very hard for AI to describe to you what that photographer’s presence on the day will feel like. It’s very hard for AI to tell you how much of the photographer’s time you can expect to experience being hands-on with planning your timeline and walking through the day. Will they voluntarily come to your rehearsal dinner the night before and like meet with people to get a better feel? Like those sorts of like extra touches and things.

that can make a huge difference. I’m never gonna be something that is scrapable off the internet. And I think as we talk about the really personal touch that some people provide, I don’t think that AI is gonna ever be able to really, really, really help people make the decision that encapsulates the depths that some people will go to.

Like I was talking to you, think when we caught up for coffee about a wedding that I did that was in someone’s backyard and their dog for whatever reason was just sus on me. And I was like this, they have a group chat obviously. But this dog was sus on me and it kept barking when I’d move around where it was. And I thought this is going to be a problem during the ceremony because I’m going to have to move and I’m the only person moving and it’s going to be upset.

Josh Withers (30:26) or dogs are sus, they have a group chat.

Joshua Mikhaiel (30:43) So I asked the groom before the ceremony if I could have some dog treats to periodically feed it through the ceremony so that it came on board and was happy that I was around and understood that I was kind of participating in its best life. And that worked and the dog didn’t bark through the whole ceremony and we were able to let them be fully present and the photos were better because of it. But I don’t know how to communicate to AI that…

I think about those things on a wedding day, if there’s a potential like problem and how many times in the last 13 years I’ve prevented a stressed out mum from making it to the bride with an issue that I can see on her face. She’s running in with a problem and I’m like, let me stop you there. Let’s solve this ourselves before you bring that to your daughter right now. Cause I can see she’s already stressed and

I think on a purely visual level of like choosing styles and things like that for a photographer or a florist or whatever, it’s probably going to be great. I think if people are chasing their like 1 % unicorn photographer who’s going to be their Goldilocks fit, it’s tricky for AI to again provide a personal touch like that, I think.

Josh Withers (31:50) But that’s not

an AI problem. think that’s like a problem in the world because how do you communicate that? yeah, like how do you communicate that? I think about a couple that are Harley and I, Harley McNamee from Bold Creative, we did their allotment recently. And for that couple, if they hear this, like it was innocent, so I’m not really having a go. But we got to the end of the ceremony.

Joshua Mikhaiel (31:58) Yeah.

Josh Withers (32:14) And as I do, as I would have done with an alignment with you or with anyone, I always check with a photographer, but if they’re okay with it, I’ll say, hey, let’s get them together for a big group photo. that some people do want the group photo. This isn’t really for or against the group photo. It’s just actually a really good opportunity to get everyone together and let them know, hey, we’re going to do some family photos. If you’re family, stick here. If you’re not family, go away.

Joshua Mikhaiel (32:29) Yeah.

Josh Withers (32:35) So it’s just, we get a group photo and that’s a photo that exists in the, in the gallery, but it’s, um, it’s more about the bringing everyone together. We just said, we’ve just had congratulations and, and so that’s why I do the group photo. Uh, and I, and so I, um, Harley said that’s okay. And so I said to the couple said, Hey, do you want to this? We’ll do a group photo. There’s some family photos. There’s no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we don’t want to don’t any of that. No stage photos, just candidates. Um, okay. Cool.

Joshua Mikhaiel (32:35) Yep.

Yep.

Josh Withers (33:02) Okay, you’re in charge. And then and then they proceeded over the next half hour to request individual photos with different people. Because they want to know photo with their mom, I like and it and both these things are fine. But people don’t often know what the different words mean. And they don’t like truly candid photos.

Joshua Mikhaiel (33:03) Yep.

Yep.

Mm.

Yeah.

Josh Withers (33:25) you know, photo of you mid word and you look like you’re having a stroke. That can back that classifies as a candid photo. Is it a good candid photo? Maybe not, you know, um, because at the other end of the scale is, is the purely directed photos. think I’ve told you, uh, I had an experience Britt and I modeled for a photographer years ago and, um, and he was like,

Joshua Mikhaiel (33:34) Yeah. Yeah.

Mm.

Josh Withers (33:49) I don’t know what the word is, but very directional, like essence of finger placements and all this kind of stuff. And it was a horrible experience. Someone probably likes it, but, but, but how, like, like, how do we fix this problem? How do we, how do we solve it? How do we, how do we, how do we get Jack and Jill who were planning a wedding today and Josh McCow is their perfect photographer, but he is their unicorn. How do you say that? Because this isn’t whether it’s an AI problem or not. This is a

Joshua Mikhaiel (34:02) Mm.

Josh Withers (34:14) communication problem, it’s a marketing problem, it’s an understanding problem. Yeah, it’s that.

Joshua Mikhaiel (34:16) Hmm.

there’s layers to it, right? And one, one problem is that photographers mostly don’t want to sit down over coffee for two, three hours with a couple and talk about every minute detail of a wedding day as the professional has been to hundreds of them and try and understand at every detailed level, the expectations and coach couples through what might.

be the best option for them. Like from what it sounds like, that couple thought that group photos that were staged meant we all stand in one place in a line and take all these photos. And their idea was similar, but they were just like, when I’m talking to mum, maybe there’ll be a candid photo and then maybe I’ll just put my arm around here and we’ll also get one in that spot. And then as I move somewhere else and these photos will be slightly different instead of us all standing in one spot, making life easy for the photographer to get them all, ⁓ which is valid.

Josh Withers (35:13) Yeah, yeah.

Joshua Mikhaiel (35:14) but I think without spending the time you get, a less good product. And it’s tricky because it’s not like making a film where you have an editor and there are all these people who can like go back and reshoot anything afterwards as you communicate, no, we don’t like that. Can you change this? You need to do that work beforehand because it’s happening in one go and there’s one take and that’s it. and.

people typically, even the couples probably don’t really want to have to sit down with all of their vendors for hours and hours and hours and go through every last bit of their day. But.

Josh Withers (35:49) It can be a lot to go through

all those details.

Joshua Mikhaiel (35:53) No, it’s a huge undertaking.

I unfortunately that’s part of what gives you the best results is pre-preparation and like not, I try not to impose myself in like, this is how you need to do it for it to go well, but to just ask really good questions so that I really understand what they’re hoping for so that I can then go and internalize that to make that happen for them without intruding on the wedding day.

Cause if I’m like, the best way to do family photos is this, this, this, this, this. sort of twisting the day to be a photo shoot in a way that I don’t want to do personally. I could make their date better, but I’m making it less them every time I make it better because of something that I did in a way. So there’s, there’s a tricky balance for the way that I like to approach things. I’m getting less and less.

hands on and being like, this will go better if you do it the way that I tell you to. And trying to focus less on will this be beautiful visually to will this be meaningful? And the photo will be more memorable if it’s meaningful, even if the photo is less perfect. The longer I do things, the more I’m like, does this mean something to the couple? I don’t care what it looks like if it means something because

I think as everything gets less human, as we talk about like the Oasis experience, that’s happening to weddings too. We’re trying to maximise efficiency and speed and the flex or whatever it is and weddings are becoming less human as well. And I’m always trying to think how can we find ways to make them a more human, more connected, more authentic experience for everybody.

And if I’m taking less pretty pictures, but that each picture means more to the couple, like I’m here for that, like all day long.

Josh Withers (37:38) Okay, so let’s talk about that Venn diagram. I’ll call it a Venn diagram. And I’ll bring it back to me for a second and then let you reflect on it from a photography point of view. I often say to couples that there’s three layers to the cake or three circles in the Venn diagram that make a ceremony, your ceremony. there’s, if you’re getting married in Australia, and obviously this is true for anywhere in the world, but there’s this little circle that is like, this is what the law says has to happen.

Joshua Mikhaiel (37:46) Mm.

Yeah.

Josh Withers (38:04) And in Australia, it’s 60 seconds of words. There’s a few this and this and this, but it’s minimal. But that’s unmovable. That circle is 100 % inside the Venn diagram of your ceremony. And then there’s two other elements. There’s two other circles that kind of make the Venn diagram. One is me and who I am and what I think is important.

And when you book a celebrant, you are kind of saying, Hey, Josh’s worldview, Josh’s taste in what a ceremony is, Josh’s opinion on what a good ceremony is, what Josh believes and who Josh is and what Josh values. But you, you, you kind of hiring that. And so it’s my job to put that on display and see if some one of that matches up with you. and so, but then, know,

Joshua Mikhaiel (38:29) Mm.

Hmm.

Josh Withers (38:50) you’re never gonna get all of Josh into your ceremony because it’s not my marriage. It’s not my relationship. It’s not my wedding. so, so then there is there’s a, there’s a part of me that let’s go with things because it’s not mine and it’s your wedding, which is the third circle. And like what parts of you two are reflected or should be reflected in your marriage ceremony. And so it’s this Venn diagram of me, you and the law. And

Joshua Mikhaiel (39:03) Hmm.

Josh Withers (39:13) And we figure that out. And we kind of, go through the, go through the process of figuring out how do people like you get married. and there’s obviously elements that I, I, it’s not even like, I don’t believe it’s not like I’m not going to make some big statement, but I saw a celebrant recently that was reading tarot cards in the ceremony. I don’t, ⁓ I don’t know how to read them. I don’t like the idea of tarot cards.

Joshua Mikhaiel (39:31) know how to read them.

Josh Withers (39:37) I don’t really know much about them. just, I’m not really a fortune teller-y kind of future telling person. I’m just like, we get to choose our future. That’s literally, in fact, what I believe is in the ceremony, we breathe our future into existence. We speak into existence. It’s like a, you know, it’s like a prophetic word. Like we’re saying, this is us. We’re going forwards in this way. And so I suppose from a worldview point of view, I’m probably anti-tarot cards, anti-tarot cards in a wedding. I’m not here to say tarot cards in a wedding are bad. I don’t really.

I don’t care if you want them cool. I’m just not probably the celebrant for you. And so that’s where those kind of that’s where the Venn diagram kind of works out. And so when I choose you to be my wedding photographer, there is an element of them choosing your taste and choosing your style on choosing how you see the world through not just through the just through the physical lens, but through the metaphorical lens. Like how do you see things? And ⁓ so I am choosing that.

Joshua Mikhaiel (40:14) Hmm.

Yeah.

Josh Withers (40:32) But then there’s obviously coming around to couples and I don’t want to start answering your question for you, couples see themselves in photos differently. For most of us, we see ourselves in mirrors. And so already that’s a flittering image, just like a, that’s a reverse image. And so we don’t always have the clearest idea of how we look in photos and whether or not we like that person. how do you do it? how do you do, how do you square that circle? It’s crazy.

Joshua Mikhaiel (40:58) Yeah.

Yeah, it’s complicated is the short answer. But I think trying to get a really good grasp around who the couple are. I mean, I pick up so much on the day too without, it’s often in the things that people don’t realize they’re communicating in the way that they move through their wedding day or they move through their meeting. I’m trying to watch everything in their first interaction.

If they were holding hands at one point and then we get to the point of talking about which package they want and the price. And I see the, you know, the guy let go of his partner’s hand. I’m like, tension about how much this is going to cost. Like, right. Like, or maybe a bride comes out of the room dressed and I’m watching her eyes to see who she goes to first. If she’s like straight to the bridesmaids. I’m like, all right.

So that’s the people she’s here to show up for in a way. And she’s so excited for their reaction. But if she goes to dad and like I’m watching all of the little interactions that are happening to see whether that lines up with the communicated stated values as they appear on the day as well. but I think

It’s tough because I think just going back to like people don’t really know what they want. And it’s really hard to help people figure that out. Given my limited like invitation into that space for them. It’s not my job. I haven’t been asked. haven’t. I’ve been told to capture it. I haven’t been told to be your wedding coach. Even if I like to think that I could do the job really well.

Because everyone has a different idea of what their wedding is. Some people are like, this is a party and we just want to have fun. Other people are like, this is a celebration of like our love and our marriage. And it’s all about like the commitment and the marriage and that the ceremony is the focal point. Other people are like, this is a photo shoot and a flex and we’re going to go to the craziest place.

Josh Withers (42:57) Better shoot Netflix.

Joshua Mikhaiel (42:59) This is, this is a photo shoot to put on Instagram and yes, we’re getting married, but you know, it’s not really what we’re here for. and sometimes you have competing values within the couple. One of them that’s there for a photo shoot. The other one’s there for the commitment ceremony. One of them’s there to flex their financial means. One of them’s there to keep their parents happy. Like there’s the Venn diagram is probably a lot more than three things. and it’s.

Josh Withers (43:25) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, particularly with the couple,

I always see it’s quite rare for the couple to be completely unified about what the wedding’s for. They’re often pretty close, but still, for many people,

when they’re planning a wedding, they are still in that earlier stage of their relationship. Less so these days, it’s common to talk to a couple that have been together for five, 10 years, but it’s still, you you talk to enough couples that they’ve been together one or two years. And just by pure definition of time, it’s not really a judgment of them and who they are and their ability to construct a relationship, but just by mere fact, if you’ve only known people for first two years, you don’t know everything. You don’t know most things, but you don’t know everything. And,

Joshua Mikhaiel (43:45) Yeah.

No.

Josh Withers (44:06) because some things just take time. so, you know what? I think of when Britt and I got married, I probably didn’t fully understand at that moment that we were breathing to life our marriage. There was definitely a part of me who probably thought I want everyone I’ve known to come to this place and look at me succeed.

Joshua Mikhaiel (44:18) Yeah.

Josh Withers (44:25) Like look at me, I’ve married this hot chick. Things are going great for me. I’ve got a suit. I’ve had this guy to take photos of me. Things are pretty cool. I’m not a failure. Look at me, I’m not a failure. Yeah, that’s, and I wouldn’t have ever admitted to that at the time, but looking back, I’m like, there was like a, there was a spirit there where I just wanted to let everyone know that I wasn’t failing.

Joshua Mikhaiel (44:26) Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, no, come celebrate me doing a good thing. ⁓ which is, is valid. It is valid. No, it’s just something that you, if you knew that maybe you would have made some slightly different choices about how you chose to do it. ⁓ or I don’t know. That is so, better barbecue sauce at the reception on the ribs. many things, but I think it’s so interesting because

Josh Withers (44:49) Yeah, which isn’t, which is not evil or bad. Yeah.

Yeah, would have got a better suit.

Joshua Mikhaiel (45:10) Like I’ll photograph a wedding on a Friday that is completely constructed by the couple, for the couple, it’s about the couple. It’s their creation, their expression, their artwork in a way, if you will. And then I’ll go to the next day, I’ll go to a Russian Orthodox wedding or something else that is layered in thousands of years of

traditions and rituals and things that the couple did not in any way shape or form come up with themselves and the wedding almost happens to them from start to finish and they are participants volunteering themselves into a ritual that comes before them and will be around after them and they walk through the fire of the wedding and come out the other side

having had the traditions and rights like spoken over them. And I always just think about that and how completely different the two can be one day to another. Two people in love trying to express that and celebrate it, but one is like a complete vehicle of your creation. One is this long standing ritual that happens.

to you in spite of you. And particularly, I think for the couples who are on the like, need to create something for ourselves. I always think about how much pressure there is to come up with new things and more creative things and how often that just lends itself to the wedding industry probably getting their claws in and here’s how you spend money to show people that this matters to you.

where there’s no long-standing traditions to fall back on other than silly ones like throwing some flowers over your head backwards or you know things like that that we’ve held on to interestingly enough when there’s way better traditions if you dug back into your culture that you could have used but that we’re just so disconnected from.

Josh Withers (46:48) Yeah.

Joshua Mikhaiel (47:10) And I think that’s part of the stress for people is because the wedding day for a lot of Anglo Australians, let’s generalise, is a self-expression project and you don’t have a lot of connection to your roots potentially. You feel all these different pressures to make it this incredibly unique.

tapestry of who am I in my 30s not knowing who I am yet that I have to look back on forever and live with whether it’s your mullet or the suit that you thought looked good on you at the time or it has to be timeless but it also has to be relevant now and on trend and all these things that just don’t make your marriage any better in 20 years time and

Josh Withers (47:34) You

Joshua Mikhaiel (47:47) Yeah, I wish I had a really good answer for like what couples can do to like invoke deep traditions that matter to them or start new family traditions that might be used in their children’s weddings or other friends, you know, will pick that up or what we can do to reclaim some healthier traditions that means something, whether people aren’t religious anymore or whatever, they don’t have connection to their family roots, like how they can bring something of meaning.

to their day that isn’t just something they saw on Pinterest about putting different colored sand in the jar. ⁓

Josh Withers (48:22) Wow, coming out against

the sand. Look at that. That’s how we’re to the podcast. Josh McHale has smashed the glass sand container. I do want to go on the record and saying that the word tradition has really been demonized in the last 10, 20 years of the wedding industry.

Joshua Mikhaiel (48:27) Yeah.

or I would if I could.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Josh Withers (48:43) people will say that they are having a traditional wedding or they’re not having a traditional wedding or I am a traditional celebrant or I’m not a traditional celebrant or I’m anti-traditionalist. I just want to, so I just put the record on the podcast if nothing else. Traditions aren’t good or bad. They’re just a description of how your people do things. When I say your people, I just mean like you and your family and your…

Joshua Mikhaiel (48:48) Mm.

Yeah.

Josh Withers (49:08) just where you come from. And there’s a Greek word called Oikos, which I love, which is like your circle of people. like, yes, it’s your friends. Yes, it’s your family. Yes. Crikey. Which is not too different though. It’s not too different from Oikos. But it’s just like, does your people do in moments like this? Because traditions.

Joshua Mikhaiel (49:12) Mmm.

not to be confused with oikaz.

Josh Withers (49:28) Like a friend of mine’s grandpa just passed away, you know what’s traditional? They all went to a church for the funeral. And that’s not good or bad. It’s just like what we do when people die. And if someone dies in another culture, they do something else. so traditions aren’t bad. It’s just doing traditions for no reason. Doing traditions that you don’t like. Doing tradition that makes you vomit or feels horrible. That’s bad. But it’s fine.

Joshua Mikhaiel (49:32) Mm.

Josh Withers (49:52) It’s fine for dad to walk you down the aisle, but it’s also fine for dad not to. It’s just you looking at your family, your oikos, your tradition and saying, this is how we do things. And I wish more people got that because I feel weddings would be more joyful. Whereas I’ve seen, I’ve seen a non zero number of people crying about different things. They have to do their wedding. And I’m you don’t have to do anything, But make new traditions, do old ones.

Joshua Mikhaiel (50:14) Yeah.

Josh Withers (50:18) feel celebrated in those moments. That’s the path forward.

Joshua Mikhaiel (50:21) Mm.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Josh Withers (50:28) Joshua McCullough, I, I plan to spend the whole episode mispronouncing your last name and I, well, I’ll be honest with you. just feel like a dick doing that. So I’m not going to, I did it once though. That was fun. yeah. Yeah. I’ll just each time. Like how? Josh, because I do like you and I, I, I would like to see you succeed in life. B I like to do more weddings with you. C I,

Joshua Mikhaiel (50:30) Mmm.

You can edit it later,

You’ll Photoshop that in later. Yeah.

Josh Withers (50:52) I just want you to win. Tell people how they can find you and please give us a letter by letter spelling of your name so no one can get it wrong.

Joshua Mikhaiel (51:00) Hmm that’s very hard, but I’ve got it written on the screen in front of me if you type in Joshua the way that it should be spelt k h a i e l three vowels in a row ridiculous In brackets Egyptian pronunciation difficult phlegm humus etc That’ll probably that’ll probably bring me up On Instagram if you type in Joshua and then mi usually I just come up first thankfully because

Josh Withers (51:04) Hahaha

Joshua Mikhaiel (51:24) weird last name. So Joshua Mai something blah blah blah will get you where you need to go but otherwise I accept all forms of carrier pigeon, venmo, Santa Claus letters on the roof etc.

Josh Withers (51:35) you still running your early fans or is that over Joshua McHale. It’s always a pleasure to see your voice and to hear your face and thank you for joining us on the podcast today.

Joshua Mikhaiel (51:37) Nah. Alright, go rid of it.

Mm.

A pleasure to be seen and heard.