Every photographer is a budget photographer, it just depends on your budget

This episode sits in the heart of what weddings should be — emotional, intentional, and real. I’m joined by Renee from Tobi Tobi — a former music industry insider who now sings couples down the aisle across Australia and Europe — to unpack why music deserves more attention than a playlist request.

We dig into how live music anchors people in the moment, why couples often rush the most meaningful 30 metres of their life, and how a ceremony becomes unforgettable when it’s allowed to breathe.

We also go inside a tension many vendors feel but rarely say aloud: musicians and celebrants are often erased from photos and films, leaving couples with galleries full of cutlery and shoes — and nothing that reflects who shaped the day. We talk ceremony energy, industry culture, and what it looks like to prioritise feeling over aesthetics in a world that photographs everything.

If you care about weddings being more than content — this one lands.

Transcript

Josh (00:03) For those of you that don’t know me, my name is Josh Withers. This is a podcast about weddings and joining me today is Renee from Tobi Tobi G’day Renee

Renee (00:10) Hi, how are going?

Josh (00:11) I’m great. It’s a summer day in Tasmania, which means it’s currently a very warm 13.5 degrees Celsius. I’m having a good day.

Renee (00:19) great. You look

like it’s warm in there though. You look like comfortable and good in your t-shirt.

Josh (00:23) I’ve got the fire on just a regular

a regular summer day in Tasmania. I’ve got the fire on the heater.

Renee (00:30) Right, my mum’s in Tasmania and she’s always going, I think the weather’s actually better in Tasmania, like I think we actually have a lot better and I’m like, yeah but I’m pretty sure everyone I know from there says it’s cold, it’s very cold. A lot. ⁓

Josh (00:43) Yeah. But that’s the thing. The reason

we moved here is because I love the cold. And I like my wedding work takes me around the world or around Australia. So I don’t really have a specific like he is where I work. So if I’m always going to be flying somewhere, we thought well, when I live somewhere, that’s awesome. And then I can fly to where I’m going to work. And so we’ve always loved Tassie, we had him in here in 2012 and fell in love. And we came back and

Renee (00:56) Yep.

Yeah. Yeah.

Ugh.

Josh (01:08) We love it here. I’ve got my little two acres in the human valley. It’s absolute paradise. Yeah.

Renee (01:12) that’s amazing. my God, Tasmania

is beautiful. To me, it’s like a mini New Zealand. It’s like, like breathtaking, people are more chilled and it’s like, how lovely. That’s great.

Josh (01:16) Yeah. It is, yeah, yeah.

It’s

like if someone actually made New Zealand grades again, you know, it’s tazzy.

Renee (01:29) No, New Zealand’s great. Have you been to New Zealand much?

Josh (01:33) Yeah, I’ve got the two or three times a year for weddings and elopements And yeah, I love it. Yeah.

Renee (01:36) Do you really? Oh my gosh, how

lucky. I love New Zealand so much. I just think the people are like the warmest, most, you know, loving, kind people. You know, you just want to cuddle them all. I remember I sang at a wedding there and I was singing away and a few maoris came up and they were like, oh, this sounds so good. It sounds so good, bro. And I was like, I bet you sing like five times better than me, but like.

is so lovely like that that just goes to show their personalities like they just want everyone to have a go and like they’re just yeah they’re just so soulful and nice but anyway we won’t give them too much props Tazzy’s the best Tazzy’s the best

Josh (02:18) Actually, I will give

I will give New Zealand a little bit of props because I was there for a wedding a few weeks ago. And anyone that’s been to Queenstown, I’m just gonna wait and prep this but I’m gonna guess you can answer correctly. When you go to Queenstown, you got to have which burger

Renee (02:33) no, I don’t know, damn it. No. All right, okay, well now I do know and I will get that.

Josh (02:35) ⁓ Ferg burger, you’re gonna have Ferg burger. Okay. Okay. Well, here’s

the thing, though, when you got a Ferg burger, the line is down the street. It’s silly. It’s stupid. It’s actually not fun anymore. used to be fun. The burgers are still great. It’s just not fun lining up forever. But I was saying in our town, this is for anyone listening, who is going to Queenstown soon. In our town is the butcher that supplies Ferg burger, which is called Ferg butcher. You can actually get burgers from the butcher and

Renee (02:50) Rhyme.

I love you. love you.

Josh (03:01) In my opinion, I

Renee (03:02) I you.

Josh (03:02) don’t know whether it’s just because you don’t have to wait that they taste better, but I think they just taste better.

Renee (03:06) Yeah,

right. well, that’s good. Good.

Josh (03:07) I’m still thinking about the bacon

and egg roll I got there a couple of weeks ago. It was beautiful.

Renee (03:11) that’s great. how nice to be traveling so much, especially, yeah, to places like New Zealand that are not too far where you’re not like, my God, are you taking the kids with you when you’re traveling?

Josh (03:14) Yeah, it’s good, it’s good.

Yeah, sometimes sometimes we we took them to Europe this last some European summer. And Luna, my eldest, she said to us on the way home, she’s, don’t think I’ll do Europe next year. Like, ⁓ thanks, Bob. Thank you. I’ll take I’ll take that to management and let them know that my seven year old doesn’t think she’ll do Europe next year. ⁓

Renee (03:33) I’m

You

my god, who would

she stay with your parents or something if she was to stay back?

Josh (03:47) Yeah. So, so this coming summer, I’ll go by myself to Europe. I’ll do June, July in Europe for weddings and alomance. And then as a family, we might go back to next year. So usually they come, but not all the time. Yeah.

Renee (03:51) Yep. Yep.

Right. Yeah, that’s the same.

That’s the same with us. Like all our Europe trips we’ve taken the kids. no, sorry. We did one trip for a week where we just went ourselves. And we I think we’ll end up doing more of that where we just go for one off, go for a one wedding. And people think, God, that’s insane. You’re going up for like two days and then coming back. But as a parent, you would know, Josh, it is kind of like

Josh (04:05) Yep.

Renee (04:22) holiday. Like I’m literally sitting on the plane. People are doing shit for you. They’re cooking for you. Your food is there. And you know, you’re just watching TV the whole time. Sorry, that’s just Jamie walking past. I’m like, you got to stay outside Jamie. He’s like mowing all the lawns. Mowing all the lawns. We’ve got one lawn. But yeah. But yeah, I feel like it’s actually quite relaxing and you like can dream. You’re just by yourself in this space like

Josh (04:24) Yeah.

100 %?

That’s right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Renee (04:50) You know, you can gather your thoughts. Yeah.

Josh (04:51) that 15 hour leg from Yeah, the 15 hours from Melbourne to Qatar is one of my favorite flights. I like you like you just said you said that you do nothing no one asks anything of you. Yes, you can’t do any work you can’t do any emails no one can nag you people feed your food there’s TV and movies you can have an app if you can. I mean, I’m happy to fly economy I’m happy there.

Renee (05:00) Yeah! No!

Yes! Yep!

That’s right. That’s right. exactly. I think any

parent would agree with this. Anyone who has no children is like, what? Europe for two days? That’s insane. And anyone with the kids like, put me on the plane.

Josh (05:20) Yeah.

Yeah, I almost did

one of those trips in September just gone. And ⁓ our little boy Jack was born just at the back end of November. And, and the couple keen and I even I want to over quoted him. didn’t over quote them. just quoted them fee pass cost travel. But sometimes you kind of like I really want to do that. You’ll take a bit of a hit. I didn’t take a hit. And they were keen but then

Renee (05:27) Right.

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

Josh (05:45) I’m like, Brit was like, kind of the back end of September starts edging towards when babies could arrive if maybe even things go wrong, you know, and I just, I didn’t do it. but part of me thought, just, just to go and spend four or five days alone would be a real treat.

Renee (05:50) Yeah. Yes.

Yeah, yeah, it’s really tough

those decisions. Like we had, I had a similar one when I was pregnant, you know, flying in that last three months as well. And I looked it up on, you know, Google and whatever. And there’s hardly ever any pregnant women give birth on planes even late in their third trimester. So it’s like, like, you know, am I gonna, you know, tempt this tempt fate? And, you know, yeah, we decided not to fly so close to the end, but

Josh (06:09) Yeah.

you

Renee (06:27) Yeah, it’s a hard decision to make. Especially, yeah, leaving your partner, you know, you could technically go and you’d be okay, but then if something did happen, God forbid, you’re like, I’m bloody, you know, 24 hours away. It’d be terrible.

Josh (06:32) Yeah.

Yeah, well, I

mentioned I had the wedding in New Zealand. I flew back from New Zealand on our due date. And that week was, yeah, that was, it was not stressful. was just just on tender hooks the whole time. And every time I’d get a phone call from Britain, like, hopefully this isn’t the phone call, like, please don’t be the phone call. But it all worked out fine. I actually haven’t told the story anyway. So I’ll tell it here.

Renee (06:46) my gosh.

Right.

Yeah.

yay!

Josh (07:02) On on Saturday the 29th of November, I had a wedding in Melbourne, so flew to Melbourne for the day. It was a real flying flyer. I kind of got off the plane at like 12 o’clock. I called an Uber to the to the ceremony, did the ceremony, kissed and hugged everyone, called an Uber back to the airport, got on the plane and got off the plane at like quarter past five. And there’s a text message from Britt saying, hey, don’t dilly dally, come home. I’m not feeling good. Got some pains.

And so I get home, I look at her, thought tonight might be the night. So I fill up the bath for us to give birth at home, not the bath, the birthing pool. ⁓ And they take a long time to blow up, like you’ve got to inflate it, then you’ve got to fill it with hot water. So it takes forever. And so this is probably about six, do I start that. And 45 minutes later at 11 past seven, she messages the midwife saying, think tonight’s the night. She jumps in the pool, the pool’s still filling up.

Renee (07:34) I think we’re

Yeah.

Josh (07:50) And she starts laboring the midwife arrives and at 747 she gives birth. She was she labored for I like it. Yeah, less than like less than 45 minutes and and Jack was born before the sunset. It was great. And I got home from the airport fine. Everything was perfect.

Renee (07:55) ⁓ my-

Wow, that’s terrific.

how beautiful. my God. That sounds so nice. I love home birth stories. They’re really lovely. were your kids there as well or no? ⁓ that’s so nice. my gosh. That’s so beautiful. Yeah. And you’re making me want to have a third child. Cause I think it would be so nice to have your kids involved in that. I was at a wedding as well when I went into labor.

Josh (08:09) Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they were keen. They were loving it.

Yeah.

Renee (08:35) with my second child and we drove to the hospital. I was feeling really good. I could tell the contractions were coming on quicker. I was like, there were two minutes apart or something. I went to the hospital, but they just then completely stopped. Even though I was completely relaxed, I was happy to be there because it was Jamie’s sister’s hospital. She was a midwife. So she knew all the staff and she was texting them and I was like, this is great. Like I have a little connection with these people. And then

Josh (08:45) Yeah, yeah.

Renee (09:01) It just stopped, just completely stopped. And she’s like, well, you could go home because we’ll have to rupture your waters or something if you stay here. So I was like, I don’t really want that. I’ll go home. We go home. And then I took something, I’m a little bit of a self-experimenter. So I took something called the Midwives Brew. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of that, but it’s like a tiny bit of castor oil with pineapple juice and like some other things.

Josh (09:21) ⁓ I thought you were gonna say castor oil, but it’s not castor oil, it? ⁓ it is.

I think I think everything it sounds like everything else is just to make the castor oil tastes less horrible, right?

Renee (09:31) Anyway, so I-

Yeah, it’s basically the car store, but you got to have the

tea. If anyone’s going to look it up, you have to have the tea because the tea activates something. Anyway, just whatever, just use the tea as well. Anyway, I drank it and then just like with my other child, it started coming on straight away, contractions started happening. And I was like, we’ve got to get in the car. We get to the car. And I was like, no, we can’t, we can’t go to the car. We’ve got to go back to that. And at this point we’re living in a hut, which was like a, like a

Josh (10:02) Josh.

Renee (10:03) handmade mud brick house while we built this house that we’re currently in. But it was really rugged and cute like cottage thing. like, you know, yeah. And so we’re in there and I gave birth like 45, not even 45, like five minutes later because I had been laboring then for like three hours or whatever. And then, yeah, it just went like bang. I think after child number one, things just happened so much faster.

Josh (10:23) Yeah

Renee (10:29) Was your wife’s first birth quite long?

Josh (10:30) Yeah.

Yeah, it was about four to five years. Um, her first, yeah, it was, we, we, we saw multiple prime ministers through her labor. Yeah. Yeah. It was, um, and the second was like just like an hour and a half, hour and a half, hour 45, something like that. Yeah. Yeah. So I don’t know if we’re gonna have more kids because, uh, it just might be, you know, just a zip.

Renee (10:43) god. Yeah.

⁓ yeah, Yeah, that’s great.

Two seconds.

Here we are, we’re pregnant Earth, it’s happened.

Josh (10:58) You know, it’s, um, it’s funny you mentioned going to the hospital and, and the mood changes and you’re maybe under stress or just your, I don’t know if mental state or emotional state is the right way to describe it. I’m oversimplifying, but, uh, through all of their pregnancies and births of, cause I work in the wedding space as you do, that’s just a wedding podcast. Apparently. Um, I, can’t help but spend the whole time kind of correlating.

Renee (11:22) I’ll get to that.

Josh (11:26) the vibes of pregnancy and giving birth. And there’s like so many kinds of connections to getting married. it’s a not, it’s not the same procedure, but just even vibes like, gosh, and this is probably a good segue to talk about weddings. The, I feel like a lot of people don’t spend enough time thinking about talking about the vibe of their wedding, which is a real generalised term, but just like how it feels. And instead, yeah, like we spend so much time.

Renee (11:32) Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes! How it feels. Yes Josh,

Josh (11:55) on how it looks, which

Renee (11:55) how it looks.

Josh (11:57) is important because how things look affect how they feel. ⁓ know, like, and so not to dismay how it looks. And also, we spend a lot of time on budgets. Like my favorite thing, I commented for the first time the other day a Facebook group, someone said, looking for a budget photographer. I said, Hey, do you know every photographer is a budget photographer? It’s just what changes is your budget. Because that

Renee (12:00) Exactly.

Josh (12:18) Everyone has a different budget. Like every photographer isn’t someone’s budget. but money is important. Like we don’t have endless money. So how much you have to spend is a thing. But I feel that those two are kind of legs on the table that is vibe. And I know like I’m sure you and I’ve both been at weddings where the vibe hasn’t been there.

Renee (12:18) That’s right. That’s right.

I love that Josh.

love those thoughts that is yeah, perfectly put. Like people do think about all the aesthetic things that need to obviously go into a wedding. But there’s one chat that I have with every bride before she walks down the aisle and that is like, just stop for a moment before you walk down, take a few deep breaths and use the music.

if you like what we do, which I hope you do, because you’ve hired us, if you, you know, use us to connect with the moment and the present time, because when I was getting married, I had my best friend singing me down the aisle and she’s amazing, got the most beautiful voice and I cannot remember a single part of it because I was just bolting down the aisle. I just bolted down the aisle. And that’s not because I was obsessed with aesthetics or anything, because that’s, I really had a really

kind of cheap backyard wedding. But what I didn’t take time to do was just soak it in and just go, okay, what do I want to feel on my wedding day? I want to feel the love and I want to feel the joy and connected to all the people here. Like, so I always have that chat, just use the music, connect to it. Doesn’t matter how long you take. If you take the whole song to walk down, that’s why you’ve got live musicians.

We can play it three times. Like it doesn’t matter to me. It’s not really gonna matter to the guests. All that matters is that you feel good and you feel centered and like grounded and like I’m ready to walk down the aisle, you know? That’s what matters. And it’s really hard to get that across. Cause I can see even if I’ve had that conversation, there’s still brides that just like powered down the aisle. And I can see it in their face. They’re just all up in their head and they can’t.

Josh (13:56) Yep.

Yeah, yeah.

Renee (14:22) get out, they can’t like, just relax and let the day take them because there’s so much pressure. It’s so full of pressure and anxiety and the money that you spend and it’s like, yeah, we almost need to have it like a meditate. I’m thinking about putting together a meditation that you can sort of do for five minutes, pop your ear pods in, even with your dad, just hugging your dad or whatever, just put it in and zone, get in the zone and then you start the day.

because I don’t want brides, yeah, breathing, breathing, do some breathing techniques like God, but yeah, Josh is a beautiful way to put it. It’s the same with birth. It’s like, yeah, you kind of think, I’m gonna do this with my child, I’m gonna do that. And you think about all the things, but how’s it gonna feel? how is it gonna feel that labor? What’s it gonna feel like afterwards? Like, yeah, yeah. You’ve hit the nail on the head.

Josh (14:51) Even just some breathing, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So I wanted to

have you on the podcast for a good reason, which I’m going to get to soon. But I wanted to start with something that I was thinking about as I was thinking about having you on. so I’m, don’t know if you know this, but I’m former breakfast radio. So I used to be on breakfast radio every day and I was on the hit music station. So we were playing the hits. And the reason I took that career is because I used to listen to the radio and I loved hearing the newest music and like, and then

Renee (15:19) Okay, yep.

Okay.

Yeah.

Josh (15:41) As I kind of got into radio, I really, I kind of understood more the curation aspect of music and the music industry and that we as a radio station would create music and put it on the air. And, I was like, Hey, these are the hottest hits. Like we’ve decided we have a hot hits curators, know? Um, and over the last 10 to 20 years, that’s really changed. And I’m, I’m really interested in, and I don’t know whether you’ve had to start, um,

Renee (15:51) Yeah.

Yeah!

Josh (16:11) experiencing this yet, but I feel it’s if it hasn’t happened already, it’s on the it’s on the cards, that wedding entertainment, and wedding entertainers that that those groups will splinter more as the music industry is splintered. Because it used to be, you know, if I’m who if if if if Beyonce if Beyonce released a new album, most of us like the album, we all knew the album, we don’t know the songs. But today,

Renee (16:26) Yeah, yeah.

Yep. Yep.

Josh (16:34) Like you and I listening to different new music, like I could like a Stu Larson, friend of mine just released an album this week. I’m sure that you and anyone else hearing this doesn’t know who Stu Larson is hasn’t heard his new album, probably never will. And that’s okay. Like that’s, that’s how taste works. But as far as providing way to winning entertainment, like that’s such a, it’s just such a wild space to be in to think that the hundred, the top 100 or the top 40 or whatever it might be just doesn’t really exist anymore.

Renee (16:46) Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (17:02) And, and how do you start addressing that?

Renee (17:02) Josh, I’m loving your co…

Gosh, you definitely are the right person to start a podcast. I tell you what. But I think that’s a really great question. think, where to begin? Okay, firstly, we might’ve met because I was signed to Universal Records back in a long time ago and I did the radio. I did the radio rounds. I’m like friends with Dave Higohiggins still. I don’t know if you know him from Triple

Josh (17:20) wow, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yep.

Renee (17:29) Anyway, but back to your question, which is the most important thing. Yes, we’re so splintered and it’s not just like top 40 now. I was actually thinking about that when it comes to like bigger bands and what they play on the dance floor, because I was thinking I’m into Sabrina Carpenter at the moment, which is so not our lives. But like, I was like, I’m thinking, I’d love to eat this at a wedding, like, and just get down to Sabrina Carpenter. But then like how many people do?

I mean, she’s probably quite a big one, yeah, think when it comes to choosing wedding bands, it’s good to look for people that do a variety of music. you can know, okay, that person can do country, they can do jazz, they can do pop, they can do rock. Or if you like a specific genre, then target a band that just does that genre.

or love that genre and put out lots of music on that genre. For me personally, I love all the genres. I will sing a musical Disney song and then I will sing Mumford and Sons and then Beyonce. And I love, because that’s what I love and that’s what I wanna do. But yeah, it’s a tough one. Yeah, it is a tough one because most bands like we will learn two to three songs per wedding. Otherwise it just gets chaotic if someone says, know, like,

can you learn everything on the Muffin and Sons catalog or everything on this and that and artists they adore, it just gets too much. We can’t spend every minute learning songs. So yeah, that’s the thing. I would choose someone that already does ask for their catalog, choose someone that already does a lot of the songs that you love, ask for their catalog and then look through their catalog of music and…

you can say, okay, well, they already do like 30 songs that I love. And then add in a few for those special moments that you want, and just make sure that they’re on the right page. But for me personally, I haven’t felt it. Like I haven’t felt like, they’re asking for a lot or this is so out of our range or this is really different. I have not, yeah, but also we do.

the ceremony in canapes mostly. don’t do receptions as much. I wonder what asking somebody who does that space, what, you know, what the bang is, you know, yeah.

Josh (19:41) Yeah.

It’s probably more of a DJ thing as well because

so I was watching a YouTube video over the weekend with a guy because this is my YouTube algorithm is just talking dirty song things just nerd. I like to nerd about dirty things. And it was a guy talking about why why is teenage dirt bag such a popular song.

Renee (19:57) That’s great.

Josh (20:02) And he was describing the chords. and I am not spun off to retail in a river on the podcast, but I’m sure if you Google why is teenage dirt bag a popular song, you’ll find the same truth. And, and, and he goes, it was such a popular song that my wife walked in the aisle to it at our wedding. I’m like, when he said those words as, you’re probably hearing, you’re like the recorded version. And then they played it. I don’t know. It was, it was like an acoustic, feminine acoustic version of the song. And,

Renee (20:26) Awesome.

Josh (20:27) And I’m like, Oh, that’s, that’s probably where having a wedding music or a duo comes into its strength is, um, you can say you walked in there on a slipknot, but an acoustic version, like, Oh, an acoustic version of that sounds lovely. Whereas the recorded version, a little bit different, you know, so there was that freedom of them.

Renee (20:46) Yeah, that’s right. Like, simply the best

is one of the ones we get the most requests for. you know, you, I mean, you could have Tina Turner, you could have the Tina Turner. If you like it, you should do it. But I, you know, we strip it back into this nice, you know, romantic, because those, words in that song are actually amazing and really heartfelt. So it’s like, and 500 miles, we do that with 500 miles as well. It’s like, you know, classic, you know,

Josh (20:59) Yeah.

Yep.

Renee (21:15) great with grooms love that song. So it’s like, it’s great to have an acoustic duo do those types of songs.

Josh (21:22) Yeah, no, that’s interesting talk. All right, let’s let’s get controversial. And it’s kind of it is pivoting a little bit off the back of, of talking about how weddings feel because I saw me I’ve been a marriage celebrant for must be 16 years now, think, 617 in May, actually. And definitely something that I’ve seen when something that I’ve encouraged something I’ve pushed for. And if I’ve seen an opportunity to pull a lever that would encourage more of this, I’ve done that is

Renee (21:27) the

Yeah.

Josh (21:47) weddings have become more and more and more about being married and not getting married. And there’s more and more, um, reality. Uh, I was trying to think of the best way to describe it when I was preparing for the podcast. feel like weddings of old were a little bit of a role play, kind of like a dress up. Like we’re dressing up as fancy people, role playing as fancy, fancy people. And, and the capturing of a wedding.

Renee (21:55) Mm-hmm.

Josh (22:16) leant into that, that like, you wouldn’t normally get photos of yourself this good. But on your wedding day, you’ll dress up, you’ll look beautiful, you’ll feel amazing, you’ll have all the fancy things. And the photographer from the videographer would capture that in a beautiful cinematic, fine art, lovely, beautiful way. And I’ve actually, I like that kind of photography. I those photos of me. But the world has shifted a little bit, a lot, maybe and

Now we are leaning more into the reality of a wedding day. The fact we’re getting married to be married and our, and I guess it’s in a world where we have great cameras. I’ve got great cameras behind me. love making good photos. we have AI, generate, generate a video and photos in that world where we can make these perfect, beautiful things. The capturing of a wedding has shifted a little bit too. And this is where content creators have really found their niche.

to just like, just capturing the reality of it, just like not, not making it beautiful. What just, what is, is there is beautiful. The fact you’ve invited these people, the fact, the fact you’ve got these people, the fact you’ve got this museum, you’ve got this celebrant, et cetera, in this place, we’ve decided this is beautiful and we’re capturing it like this. Which I feel.

has brought us to a place where you and I have experienced that you kind of, look at the wedding photos and video and you’re like, you wouldn’t know that Josh Withers was the celebrant there. You wouldn’t know that Toby was playing music. You just wouldn’t know. And you and I have in private conversation discussed how that’s…

Renee (23:41) I’m out of

Josh (23:47) It matters to me, I’ll speak from you, I’ll let you speak for you in a second, that it matters to me, because I’m not just doing another ceremony. Like part of the reason I became a celebrant was because I, I saw a celebrant doing just another ceremony. And I thought that sucked. And I wanted to not just celebrate marriage in an idealistic global way, but celebrate this person, this person’s marriage and they’re coming together. And that’s important. We love that. So I put heart and effort into it, put work into it.

And I consider it to be the best part of the wedding. And not that I need to be captured for my glory, or I need to be photographed or videoed. So that everyone knows how great I am. Because I don’t think being I don’t think one photo in the photo album is gonna do that. I don’t think a five second shot in a video is gonna do that. But that it’s just that’s all part of the story that is that these two got married and Joshua has made this seller ceremony.

Well, not even Josh with us, that guy who maybe isn’t even named made their ceremony and the ceremony was good and important and, true for every other element of the day as well. That if they’ve got my friends at wheel and spoon, if they’re serving ice creams, that’s a deliberate choice. The couple made to pay whatever they paid for that and to have these ice cream flavors like a, like a, um, Dan and I were from wheel and spoon was talking and he’s like, he’s choosing, like they’re choosing these certain flavors for you at certain times. And it’s, it’s, it’s every element of the wedding is so intricately intimately chosen.

Renee (24:43) Yep. Yep.

Josh (25:10) and then you see the photos of a personal and then you see the kind of capturing back and you’re like, you wouldn’t know we were there. And I just think it’s dishonest to the truth of the wedding.

Renee (25:10) Personal

Josh, perfectly put, I actually think you’ve just nailed it because it’s a delicate conversation to have because we honestly owe a lot of our success in this industry to amazing photographers and amazing videographers. There are some beautiful people in this industry and you know that it’s working with some of the nicest people around, but there’s a lot of people that

Honestly, either I don’t know what it is or whether they’re focused on aesthetics now so much that if you don’t like how we look or I don’t know what it is, but I just wholeheartedly agree with everything you’ve said. The couple have chosen and spent time and effort in choosing

this list of vendors and where celebrants and musicians are there on the day celebrating with the couple and for the couple. And that should be reflected in videos and photos. And like you said, getting a shot or

split second of video is not going to do anything for us promotion wise. Like it’s not like we’re gonna blow up or like, you know, but it makes me sad for the couple. Like I loved our celebrant Josh. He was sort of of your vein. He was hilarious and just really engaging and real and funny. And we went to a lot of effort into choosing him.

and making sure he was right for us. And I’ve got this beautiful photo of him, you know, with the mic in this like engaging the audience position. And I remember that photo. It’s in my photo album because I value him and the photographer obviously appreciated that as well. And that is a part of my memory. And unfortunately our memories, my memory is shocking.

You know, it is so bad. I can’t remember anything. Literally a week later, I will forget. you know, having his image in our wedding book, just, I know I’ll never forget him. You know, like I’ll be reminded of him and reminded of how funny he was every time I look at that photo. And yeah, I think it’s a no brainer to me. It’s almost frustrating that this conversation has to happen.

Why do we have to be reminded, why do we have to remind photographers and videographers to take photos of things that are important? Like I don’t have to ask people is music important? I know music is important and I know celebrants are important. So why don’t they know that it’s important? Like I’ll tell you a hilarious story and this goes back to my memory and how quickly I forget but.

We worked with this videographer a little while ago and we sang, talked to the bride for ages about the exact timing of a song she wanted to come down the aisle to and how she wanted it to sound. She wanted it acapella in certain moments and we sort of orchestrated this aisle moment. Anyway, this videographer took a little snippet of me strumming the guitar, not any part of me or any part of our duo. It could have been anyone on guitar.

you know, just strumming away, then used our audio in the video and then didn’t tag us in the caption. Like, so they’ve used our audio, they have put my hand in, which is something, but it’s almost better not to be in it at all, to be honest, that’s what I would say. But yeah, and then I was working with this same videographer recently and I’ve been reaching out to videographers just being like, you know, we love to be part of the video in any way, like just a snippet, just, you know, passing by, just, you know, just so the couple can remember who we are and what we’ve done and how we played a part in their day. And I said to this videographer, you know,

videographers these days, they’re just taking snippets of our hands now. And it was the same guy who turned our other one. And he just kind of looked at me funny and kind of and then we talked about it later. And I was like, shit, that’s the same guy. Like, I’ve really just put my foot in it. But I, I, hate it. Like, I hate being reduced to, you know, all these years, 20 years, I’ve been rehearsing and playing and practicing, and I’m reduced to

Josh (29:38) Ha ha ha ha ha!

Renee (30:00) my that you know I hate it ⁓

Josh (30:03) And if

I could add some context to it, because I feel that maybe, like, I’ve been doing this a long time, and I know a lot of people that have been doing a long time. And, and I am probably guilty of missing this important fact, which happened through COVID. And I don’t, this isn’t going to be the COVID cast just FYI, but there was a cultural change through COVID, which is really important for us to recognize the wedding industry that much like

with many other cultural big cultural events that occurred. for example, when 9-11 occurred, it became okay to put the lower thirds on TV and have the rolling news to go going through. That’s that is a result of 9-11 that CNN and MSNBC and all those channels couldn’t convey enough information at once. So not only would there be people talking on the TV, but there’d also be a rolling ticker at the bottom with other news. So there’s these things that happen through big cultural events.

Renee (30:55) Yeah.

Josh (31:00) And we’re left with the remnants and society is better or worse for it. but something to happen in the wedding industry that maybe many of us haven’t really picked up on is that everyone getting married has permission now to have whatever size wedding they want. Because for periods there, are forced to allow or force have micro weddings. and the results of that is now when you turn up to a wedding this weekend and that wedding is what it is.

If it’s zero guests, if it’s two guests, if it’s 20, if it’s 200, if it’s 2000. In most cases, people have actively made that decision. Like they wanted that. Which is, which is not, not the truth pre COVID. I don’t know if you’ve ever had some of this extreme, but I remember consoling a bride who was crying because she didn’t want to have the wedding. She wanted to get married, but she didn’t want to have the event she was about to walk into. And, and like I said, as a good celebrant, she’ll be like, know,

Renee (31:35) Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (31:54) You don’t have to do any of this. You know, if there’s consent issues around your marriage, like that’s a concern for me. But also as a friend, let me tell you, none of this has to happen. But also have kind of paid for it. And I didn’t say that. But yeah, and I consoled her and she got her she got through it. And she walked in. it was a great day. But she didn’t want to have a wedding. But COVID now gave us the permission to have the wedding we’re having. So when someone’s invited their 200 guests,

they are with intention with purpose. And if they’re not that’s that person’s loss because they had permission. And if they didn’t take the permission, that’s their that’s their fault. But so so used to be you’d go to a wedding and the guests would be like, Oh, he’s guess our bloody guess. I guess there’s always guests here. Family photos. Oh, gosh, I hate family photos. Like, cool. Now when you talk to a wedding, those people were invited, they’re intended to be that they’re wanted.

They have valued people in their couples life as are the vendors.

Renee (32:49) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Josh (32:52) And, and so I would hope that would encourage us to capture everything in a new light. Well, you might hate family photos. In that case, don’t be a wedding photographer. Like go and photograph other things. ⁓ yeah. and that applies for all of us. Like, like me as a celebrant, like this, I’ve been guilty in the past. I’ve been like, yes, it’s like getting in the way of me having a good time with this couple. But I’ve had to realize like, you know, like this is a communal exercise here. We’re all doing it together.

Renee (33:04) Yeah.

Yeah

Josh (33:19) Um, and I just think that’s a really important thing for us to, to realize. Cause I’ve, um, I, I shared a story with you of an allotment I did once where I picked a photographer and videographer up. all went to the wedding together. wasn’t like, sorry, we went to the allotment together and we’re all friends. I know these guys, I love them. Like we’re, we’re friends. We have each other’s friendliness and we text each other every now and then. And they, um, they, I saw the gallery and the video afterwards and

you wouldn’t have known there was a celebrant. I’m like, there was two people present, two, the couple plus the video photo and me. And so not only was I absent, but the video and photo was absent. I’m not saying every photo needs to have a videographer in there, but there’s just, there’s just a dishonest part to it. And I’m not suggesting that photographers like, gosh, as I’ve said, these words, my God, I’m to get the fury of photographers on my bloody Instagram as we share this, which I don’t mind. but

I just, don’t think it’s, it’s evil or it’s bad. I just think culturally the world has changed and weddings are happening with intention now. And I hope the capture of them would include that intention.

Renee (34:22) get.

Yeah, yeah, perfectly put. can’t, yeah, it’s crazy that that, but it just goes to show, yeah, I don’t think it’s, I honestly don’t think it’s intentional. Do you think sometimes that we’re viewed as behind the scenes? Cause I put up a post recently. Yeah, I put up a post and I probably shouldn’t have done this where I singled out a particular vendor.

Josh (34:43) The help.

Renee (34:51) for not including us, because this couple had flown us across the world to play at her wedding. We played three hours over dinner, we played canapes, we were there for a long time. Afterwards, the bride was gushing to me, you’re one of my favorite parts of this wedding, like we chose you almost first and you know.

Okay, so that’s the importance of what we thought. We had like this stage, we were like in the middle of this thing, you know, this gorgeous place. I’d put a lot of effort into my attire, you know, as I always try and do because I do keep in mind that idea that, okay, if there’s a photo or a video, then I want to, you know, match everything or at least be classy and be, you know, okay. So, you know,

then we get left out of this video, this two and a half minute video. And I singled out this vendor and I probably shouldn’t have because it happened so much that I think I just got to the point where I was fed up. Like just a bit like this, I’m just fed up with this, especially, I wanna make a post about this, especially because the cutlery seems to get more

Josh (35:55) you

Renee (36:09) attraction than the musicians and it’s like it seems to be I hope it doesn’t sound sarcastic because it’s meant to it’s meant to highlight the fact that there’s more importance being placed on the aesthetic is what you’ve what you was talking about before on the aesthetic of the cutlery and the plates over how I made that couple feel and I don’t care I don’t

Josh (36:09) You

Yeah.

Renee (36:38) I don’t care if there’s not a two second spot of me and I’m not gonna use that video. I’ll put it up on my story and say, beautiful video. Like that’s what I do, but it’s not gonna get me anything. This videographer didn’t tag us or anything in it. So it’s not for me. It’s the fact that this couple now, whenever they watch that video, we’re not there. We’re not there and it was so important.

Josh (37:03) Yeah.

Renee (37:06) She said we were a highlight. it’s yeah, it’s like getting back to that feeling, to the feeling and what matters. And I don’t care if you’ve got, you know, if we look fugly, if you think we’re horrible looking or like, you know, we’re wearing some funky shit. It doesn’t matter. The couple chose us to be there. So I don’t care if my hair’s purple and I’m wearing a

Josh (37:30) Go.

Renee (37:35) I don’t know, bandana. Like, I’m there because they want me there. And so you should reflect what that couple want. And we should say, do you think Josh, that 90 % of photographers and videographers are doing this? Would you say it’s like that 10 % that is just not caring? Or would you think it’s more? There’s more.

Josh (38:00) Yeah, look, I tend to hang out with pretty cool photographers that are very, I guess, aware of the situation and their position of the world. So it’s probably more something I see through social media and whatnot. I think it’s, you know, I’m gonna say it’s it’s a symptom of the post.

It’s a symptom of wedding magazines not being a thing anymore. But that’s how everyone shoots. We shoot to get in vogue or get in a Hello May or whatever it might be. And those magazines kind of had a shot list you’d need to do to get in there, which is included the cutlery. And and not the vendors with a gosh, particularly celebrant. I went to war with the wedding magazines back in 2013. Over the fact that that

Renee (38:30) Yep.

Josh (38:43) Just on one day in May, I picked up all the wedding magazines you could find in the local news agent. And none of them included the word celebrant or ceremony. There was not a celebrant in shown. There was no talk of vows or ceremony or getting married. Um, and yeah, I, uh, since that day, most of them haven’t really liked me, which is fine. I’ve got enough friends, but there is, there is a different world that exists now where, where it’s just not, it’s not the same anymore. And so.

The old getting featured in the magazine isn’t the creme de la creme that it was. ⁓ it’s nice that you got the word Vogue in your bio, but I think people are looking for reality and connection. I, I suppose I do want to pull this around to photographers and videographers that they would know that they, they, they, their personality, who they are, that’s actually part of their product now. And so it’s not just that there’s not a photo of the celebrant.

Renee (39:12) Thanks.

Mm.

Mmm.

Josh (39:39) But it’s not a photo of you. And the couple hired you for you to hang out with you all day for you, not just to make photos, like your, your JPEGs aren’t your products, but you or your product. Same with the videographer and the successful videographers are the good people that people want to hang out with. So I think it’s, it’s a crime, not just that you, that you and I really aren’t in the video, but the photographer’s not.

Renee (39:56) Yeah.

Yeah.

Josh (40:05) because we are all part of that creative team that make the wedding happen. Wedding planner, wedding planner, of them. there’s, it’s just, it’s just 1990, it’s not 1994 anymore. Like people are making these very beautiful weddings that have all of us as this creative effort. And I hope that’s where we can get to. I hope anyone that is currently hating us would listen that far. Just, you can, you can now stop listening. I’ve said what?

Renee (40:09) Yeah, yeah,

Yeah.

AHHHH

It’s such a delicate thing in how to say it right. I think it, you know, I listened to Brene Brown a while ago and she said to come at it from how you feel. Whenever you have a problem, come at it from how you feel. And every time I see a video when we’re not in it, it feels a bit like I’m worthless. Like I was not really, I didn’t really play a part in this.

That doesn’t feel good. If I’m just flashed across the screen, I’ve got a video up for anyone who’s, I don’t know when this is gonna come out, Josh, but I’ve got a video up by, okay, awesome. And it’s like my third post and it’s a perfect example of just what I’m talking about here, just having,

Josh (41:09) Yeah, probably in a few days. I’ve got nothing on.

Renee (41:27) you know, split second of, you know, us and the celebrant in and everything. was by Annette and Danny and we work with them heaps in Melbourne and they’re beautiful. Their work is beautiful. But yeah, it’s just like little split second of everything that matters. Like the flowers matter, the cufflinks matter, you know, the shoes that the bride’s wearing and the perfume.

everything seems to get captured but I don’t know why yeah musicians and celebrants were definitely in the same basket because after I did put that post up so many celebrants hit me up just like this is the story of my life like you know there’s 800 photos of the ceremony and somehow the shoes are in and the veil is in and like all these intricate tiny things but I’m not there.

Like, you know, and I ran the ceremony, like I used the one. It is, it is, it’s weird. I don’t know. Anyway.

Josh (42:20) And it’s just weird. It’s just weird is what it is.

Like it’d be like if I release

this podcast, and it I cut all of you out. And you see me play this back. And it’s just me talking. And you’re like, where was the other person? ⁓

Renee (42:29) Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah. Anyway, we love, we love our video and photographer friends. We’re not, we’re not against you. We are for you. I cannot believe how lucky I have the friends in the industry. Photography and video friends are amazing. But yeah, this is to all the people who don’t appreciate. I did, I do actually point out to photographers this stuff sometimes, like in a polite way, like, hey, you know,

Josh (42:38) I’m gonna do that just for a gag. That’ll be yeah.

Renee (43:04) I looked at the gallery and there wasn’t a photo of us and you know, just letting you know for the future, like if you can capture music, most of the time it’s important to couples. And I do mention the cutlery thing, like, you know, if you’ll notice there’s like a hundred shots of the forks, but like there doesn’t seem to be any of us. And he’s like, and yeah, most people will be like, my God. Yeah. Like why the hell didn’t I take a photo of the vibe creators or the people creating the

energy because music does so much on the day and your words, what you say at a ceremony means so much. If you’re a good celebrant, they mean so much and they set the tone for the rest of the day and you can’t capture that tone exactly, you know, you can’t capture it. It’s happy. It’s all in somebody’s mood and their happiness and their feeling, but they can just capture you and you know, and then have that remembered by the couple. I think

Josh (43:35) Yeah.

Renee (44:03) You know, it’s basic.

Josh (44:03) I’m going to take this.

Um, you said something that I think is really important that I take into the backend of the podcast, uh, to change topic a little bit, but stay exactly where we were. Um, music is important. Uh, like when, uh, when something really important is happening in a movie, there’s a music, there’s, there’s a music bed, whether it’s all care of Kestrel, whether it’s a, um, a song or a cover of a song. There’s.

Like if you look at the soundtrack of a movie, it’s, it underpins the entire narrative of the movie. And this is how old I am. I still have movie soundtrack CDs or albums that I love listening to. I actually, one of my straight up favorite movie soundtracks is the scream to soundtrack. I know if you remember that one. It was a good, it was, it was like screen. The scream soundtrack was good. It’s screen to soundtrack was really good. ⁓ and then, ⁓

Renee (44:35) Mm-hmm.

It’s awesome!

Wow, okay, I’m gonna take that

out, that’s great.

Josh (44:56) the wedding singer soundtrack was really good. And there’s so many others. Anyway, ⁓ the soundtrack of your wedding can be really awesome as well. And I, and I wanted to come around to, and I’m going to share my version. So I’ll give you a second to think about it, but just what song, or if you need to say songs, we’re going to, we’re going to max it out at three, but songs that have really, songs that have really kind of

Renee (44:58) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

⁓ three!

Josh (45:22) undergirded like a wedding for you. And so I’m going to share mine. And because I can, I just been thinking about it this whole time. I did a wedding at a world dollar estate, which is kind of at the back of the Blue Mountains, the middle of nowhere, awesome estate there. Dana day was photographing actually, he’s good to have and as it was a really cool day. And, and I

Renee (45:28) I’ll go out of K.

Josh (45:44) I’ve just forgotten the DJ that was playing, but it was one of those like a known, like really epic DJ. think he does vinyls. Like a really cool guy. can’t remember his name. Um, I’m sorry to him that I can’t credit you in this post, but, um, but the bride walked in the aisle to, um, INXS’s ‘Never Tear US Apart’, which I think did that recently just when it was that, was that number one on hottest 100 of Australian songs? Yeah. Um, yeah. So

Renee (45:55) haha

Number one, yeah, triple J. Yep.

Josh (46:11) Uh, important note, because there’s the, I think the music video version is what they use or maybe it was an original album version, but the current album version has a bit of an orchestral bit of the start, which actually takes away from it in my opinion. So the version they played was just, um, it was a little more simpler. I was really loud. It was an open space. And I think that might’ve looked the beginning a little bit to get the bridesmaids down the aisle. Um, and it was just, it was this hallowed space and.

And she kind of the bride held back a little bit to walk down the aisle to the right part of the song. And it was just, it was such a, if you, if you ever get the chance to sit in open field with a big PA system, I’m talking a big PA system. I come to going to Bose L1 or something. not a Bose S1. I really like, need a big one. And, and, and hear Never Tear Us Apart It’s

Renee (46:59) Right.

Hehehe

Josh (47:10) It’s this magical song that of just situated the whole ceremony. And because I’m ex-radio, I kind of spoke in the bits in between. Like there’s a bit in the song where it goes, dun, dun, dun, dun. And there’s like a pregnant pause. I said, please make the bride feel welcome. And everyone turned and then the song starts. I asked me. It was just really cool. It was just a good song to walk down the aisle to. And I’ve got one more. ⁓ Betty Boo.

Renee (47:32) That sounds so nice.

Josh (47:36) what’s, what’s her song? I’ve just forgotten the Betty Booth song. Anyway, I can’t remember the song, but yeah, it’s on tip of my tongue. And I, I was trying to come in with two, cause I’m kind of thinking, I’m gonna think you’re probably going to max out a three. sorry. I’m actually just going to my, I’m going to mariedbyjosh.com/wedding-songs/ Cause I’ve got a, I got my wedding song chooser in there and, and try and do it in the Betty.

Renee (47:44) ⁓ God. Fetty Boo

What’s the song?

Josh (48:00) I love you. I love you always forever. I love you always forever. Yeah. Yeah, so that was another really good song. Her cover of that song is really good. Anyway, over to you. Songs that have just really like been monumental in creating a vibe for the ceremony.

Renee (48:04) Yes, terrific. Yeah, great song.

dang-a-nee. I mean, I love any choice that really resonates with a couple and you can tell like the groom is like, you know, I just like, I love this song and I’m gonna get married and like, you know, there’s joy. I recently had a beautiful couple that chose a Bon Iver track or Bon Iver, however you want to say it. And that was, I think it was Flume or…

Josh (48:32) Yeah.

Renee (48:42) That was really lovely. I mean, you can never go past and it’s so weird. I could play Can’t Help Falling in Love every day and I reckon I would never tire of it because it’s just a classic. The words are classic, the melodies classic, everybody gets into it. I really recommend getting live musicians if you do want Can’t Help Falling in Love because everybody’s heard every rendition out there of Can’t Help Falling in Love. So that would be a unique

Josh (48:50) Yeah.

Renee (49:10) rendition for you, you know? Kind of pulling in love. I love Simply the Best and I love 500 Miles and I love Dreams by the Cranberries. Classic, classic and you can slow it down a little bit and you could also use it bookend the ceremony. You could have it really chilled for the beginning and then rev it up for the end and then you’ve got a nice bookend.

Josh (49:16) Yeah.

yeah, yeah, good one.

Love it.

Renee (49:38) Yeah, think, yeah, that’d be my three faves.

Josh (49:39) It’s been a,

it’s a good list. like that. I’m going to add them to my wedding as long as database. Hey, give everyone the shed on how they can find you guys online, website and social.

Renee (49:45) Okay.

Yeah, on social we’re under Tobi Tobi or I think if you go https://www.tobitobi.co that’s our website and it’s Toby with an I not Toby with a Y. ⁓

Josh (50:07) I told Britt that I was

talking to you and she’s like, what do mean she like it’s a brand Toby, Toby.

Renee (50:12) I I know, yeah, my husband, yeah, he’s not really into… I’m more the chatty one. He’s like, he’s like, you know, he wants to go garden or cook or do something else. But yeah, that’s fine because then I can do all the talking, which is what I like to do more than him. But…

Josh (50:31) Yeah

Renee (50:32) Yeah, you’ve been great Josh. You really have a really beautiful insight and the way you think about weddings is beautiful. And it’s nice to chat to somebody who just loves, I just love weddings. I love being a part of them and I can tell you just feel, you feel it. You feel it on the inside. Thanks Josh.

Josh (50:51) Thank you so much. been an honour having you on the podcast.